Author Topic: Upper radiator hose collapsed  (Read 19546 times)

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Offline Rotty_John

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Upper radiator hose collapsed
« on: December 14, 2011, 01:23:05 PM »
I have done a lot of work on my cooling system...

New hoses, new seals on logs, new water pump, (all from Murph), also replaced cap and temp sender and radiator switch rigged switch to allow me to turn fan on.  Ugh! All this in the last 6 months. Now I noticed  that the upper radiator hose had collapsed after a short ride. I removed radiator cap and it sprang back to position. Could I have air in the system. I did just fill it up couple of days ago.

I followed the shop procedure I think? Filled radiator with water pump bleed screw out until fluid exited water pump installed screw then filled it until it exited at thermostat bleed port, closed bleeder.  Then filled it to top of radiator neck... I am not sure where to go next. Sympoms of bad radiator cap or air in system? Any ideas?

Thanks,
John
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Offline Daytona_Mike

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2011, 03:39:40 PM »
Your rad cap should have  allowed the vacuum to pull fluid back in from the  overflow reservoir tank instead it colapsed the rad hose.
 Your hose that goes to the reservoir  must be blocked  or your cap is defective.
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Offline Rotty_John

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #2 on: December 14, 2011, 04:09:55 PM »
Yes that what I figure too...

I really got to make sure that that hose isn't clogged I didn't think about that? Thanks really good idea... the cap is new of course dosen't mean its working correctly? I started bike again and it seems ok can feel flow through the upper hose and it started heating up. Wonder if something in  the overflow tank that's intermittanly clogging it? Guess I could disconnect overflow hose at radiator cap and see if its clear.

Thanks,
John
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Offline RWulf

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #3 on: December 14, 2011, 04:48:00 PM »
I think your on the right track. You may find you need to top off the over flow tank a few times till all the air has worked it's way out.
RWulf

Offline Rotty_John

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2011, 10:55:05 AM »
Well the saga continues...

Overflow line is clear but top hose still collapses intermittantly.  Never overheats but top hose collapses 5-10 minutes after starting then eventually reinflates after a while or if I open cap and close. Very strange to me I ordered an OEM radiator cap from ebay for $10 off a 2003. Difficult for me to figure this out. No leaks and no loss of fluid. The cap I am using is a stant 10227 had to replace the origional it got damaged accidently. The cap says its a 13 psi cap digging through shop manual it show cap should be 14-18 psi? Could this be the issue?

Any thoughts?

Thanks,
John
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Offline 2linby

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2011, 11:10:09 AM »
Could be as simple as a defective section of hose?
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Offline JPavlis_CA

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2011, 01:55:10 PM »
I followed the shop procedure I think? Filled radiator with water pump bleed screw out until fluid exited water pump installed screw then filled it until it exited at thermostat bleed port, closed bleeder.  Then filled it to top of radiator neck...

Not quite the "shop procedure."  Manual states to fill the system and then bleed the air out at the water pump. No need to bleed the thermostat if done this way.

Based on your problem description, and filling method, you most likely still have an air bubble in the pump. Bet if you crack the bleed screw on the pump, you get some air out.
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Offline Rotty_John

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2011, 04:59:26 PM »
Thanks for the ideas... I did check the pump for air and got only fluid out when i bled it.  But a good idea I will check it again! I have changed fluid many times in the last 60,000 miles with no issues in the past.  I can feel fluid  traveling through system in the top hose and it warms up when its not collapsed?

Gosh I hope I didn't get a bad hose from Murph... It has only been on the bike for a couple of months? I certainly never noticed this collapsing happening in the past.

John
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Offline wild man

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2011, 05:00:28 PM »
Quote
No need to bleed the thermostat if done this way

I prefer to do both, its not that hard to bleed the thermostat and I really think air could be left under the thermo if not done, which means air still in the system.  Granted bleeding the pump is more important...

Maybe swap the old hose back to see if you still got the problem?
« Last Edit: December 16, 2011, 05:02:45 PM by wild man »
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Offline Rotty_John

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2011, 06:37:37 PM »
Unfortunately don't have the old hose anymore? A machinist friend of mine suggested to put a spring inside of the hose? Says it common in John Deere mowers... Hmmmm

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Offline RWulf

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2011, 08:48:44 AM »
I agree you may have a week hose or the new cap is not allowing the vacuum to relieve it's self by drawing fluid back from the
coolant over flow tank. If everything is right you should not need to due things like add springs or wrap tape around hose.
Richard

Offline Rotty_John

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #11 on: December 17, 2011, 11:51:45 AM »
Hello all...

This morning I did the following:

Opened bleed bolt at pump. No anti freeze came out. Opened radiator cap got a solid sream of fluid from pump bleed hole. Put bolt back in refilled system. Checked both the over flow line and vent line by disconnecting and blowing air through. Even reconnected overflow line to expansion tank applied vacuum to insure its able to draw fluid from tank. All seems good. Started and bike warmed it up. Hose didn't collapse.

Rode to work approximate 5-10 minutes into ride hose collapsed. I noticed that I can tell when its doing it there is a rapid increase in water temp 1/4 scale to 1/2 deflection of scale. The hose actually will reinflate and temp drops... but for my 40 min commute it remained deflated for most of the time. Figured it would stay that way? But hose reinflated after I went through checkpoint... remained that way last 10 minutes. Going to let it cool down allow open radiator cap and see if I can add any more fluid. Overflow tank is to full mark.

Thanks,
John

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Offline RWulf

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #12 on: December 17, 2011, 01:52:26 PM »
If you can then it is not drawing out of the over flow tank. That would point to that new cap not working.
That does not make since with the hose collapsing. Maybe you have a twist in the hose that makes it
collapse when it gets hot. Keep looking.
Richard

Offline Rotty_John

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2011, 03:31:18 PM »
Yes I am convinced the cap is not working! OEM will be here monday...
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Offline desertjeff

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2011, 08:30:29 PM »
Now as I understand it the hose collapses as the bike warms up and as you are riding it. Obviously the radiator pressure increases as the bike warms up. The cap is designed to maintain pressure up to the limit on the cap it will relieve pressure to the overflow after the 13 or 18 psi listed on the cap. When the bike cools and pressure drops in the radiator after the bike is turned off the cap will allow water to flow from the overflow tank back into the radiator. Water will not flow from the tank into a pressurized radiator.  So the cap is not the problem here I don't  believe. So what does pull a vacuum on the upper radiator hose while the engine is running? Well  water flows from the pump thru the motor out to the thermostat and back to the top of the radiator. The collapse is happening after the thermostat so it seems to me the problem is one of two things a sticking thermostat or a thermostat that has been installed backwards. Although backwards will generally cause almost instant overheating as the water flow will actually push or pull it closed. Hope to hear you solve your problem quickly.

Offline ChipDoc

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2011, 08:56:52 PM »
Rode to work approximate 5-10 minutes into ride hose collapsed. I noticed that I can tell when its doing it there is a rapid increase in water temp 1/4 scale to 1/2 deflection of scale. The hose actually will reinflate and temp drops... but for my 40 min commute it remained deflated for most of the time.
I've been running Connies for years and they've always run fairly cool.  But I recently got a new used '04 and, though she runs cool while I'm moving, once I get stuck in traffic the temp needle runs at half or a little above.  It doesn't get anywhere near the red, and I have refilled the overflow tank several times, but it's running noticeably hotter than any of my other three Connies.  They normally run between just above the Cold mark and a quarter up the scale.  That's where this one runs while can still run before I encounter traffic, and it cools down to that point after I've passed the tie-ups.  But while I sit still, she warms right up to halfway up the scale, and a nudge above that when I apply power after the light turns green.

I tried replacing the radiator cap with the cap from my '02 Connie (which never ran hot) but it acts the exact same way.  I'm going to check out the upper hose to see if it's collapsing.  Thanks for all the info!

Offline Rotty_John

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2011, 08:48:06 AM »
Thanks DesertJeff...

I am really pretending that the thermostat is not the problem! I so don't want to pull those carbs out again! I have spent a good deal of time drawing out the problem on a piece of paper. Being an aircraft mechanic I do way better troubleshooting problems visually.

What your saying makes total sense to me. The only thing I am wondering is if the thermostat is closed why doesn't the bike overheat?

Would a sticky radiator cap or a cap that is the wrong psi exhibit these symptoms?  Could there not be enough pressure in the system  to keep the thermostat open? MY only problem with that is why am I not overflowing the expansion tank?

It's easier to rationalize the incorrectly installed thermostat as it has been in there for better than 2 yesars undisturbed. It would be interesting if all this stuff happened in the summer as now I am riding in conditions in the 30-50 degree range. Would I be overheating all the time maybe?

On my ride home last night I thought if i didn't know that hose was sucking flat now and then I would say this system is working perfectly fine... no leaks...no fluid loss...no oil in antifreeze..mostly between 1/4 to 1/2 scale.  It seems to only happen at higher engine rpm crusing down the road in that 3000 to 4000 range maybe?

I am so hoping my ebay cap magically fixes all this!

Thanks,
John
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Offline wild man

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #17 on: December 19, 2011, 11:43:20 AM »
Quote
sticking thermostat

Thats my guess as well, a thermo thats slow to open...

Vacuum between pump and thermo with collapsed hose between them
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 01:53:30 PM by wild man »
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Offline Rotty_John

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #18 on: December 19, 2011, 04:56:32 PM »
Installed new cap no help....Grrrrrr!

Pulled t stat... It was not stuck open or closed and I was able to get it out without the carb removal...

It was installed with spring towards the engine and valve towards hose that leads to top of radiator. Is that's correct? Looks like the picture on page 3-2 of shop manual... but actually looks inverted on page 3-3 with majority of assembly the other way? Seems to me spring side needs to be towards engine?

I actually tested thermostat suspended in hot water it does definately open and closes with temperature change. I unfortunately couldn't find a thermometer so don't really know when it opens? Plan on changing it anyway if its sticking or opening too slowly?

Would be interesting to run with no thermostat to see if that upper hose collapes? Definative proof that its a thermostat problem..

Sure would appreciate any help...

As I am quite flustered now.

Thanks,

John
« Last Edit: December 19, 2011, 07:52:44 PM by Rotty_John »
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Offline SteveJ.

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2011, 04:09:32 PM »
Did that thermostat have a bypass hole in it? I think the stock size is somewhere around 1/16", maybe 3/32nds.
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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2011, 04:32:14 PM »
I stil think you have a defective hose.  But hey this is fun watching you chase your tail..........  >:D

Send it back and replace it with a Napa 7741 hose.  This is the universal fix it C-10 Connie hose that everyone should carry for emergency use. You will have to actuall trim the napa hose to fit but the bends are almost perfectly suited thus the perfect universal emergency fix-it hose.  :)

 http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=NBH7741_0117464077


But hey, what would I know about emergency parkinglot radiator hose repairs???     >:(   :nananana:

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Offline wild man

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2011, 06:29:46 AM »
Wow

In all the years I've owned my Connie I had no idea a precurved hose could be obtained at Napa that could work. 

Cool beans 
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Offline connie_rider

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2011, 08:05:56 AM »
Well  water flows from the pump thru the motor out to the thermostat and back to the top of the radiator. The collapse is happening after the thermostat so it seems to me the problem is one of two things a sticking thermostat or a thermostat that has been installed backwards.

I was reading the notes and thought the same thing. The build up of heat should expand the hoses.
The only way to get vacuum while the engine is running is the water pump is pulling a vacuum.

This means a restriction in the system. (Prior to the waterpump.)
Check for lower hoses being crimped, thermostat in backwards or not working. Possibly hose to the Overflow tank is crimped.

Ride safe, Ted
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 04:22:07 PM by connie_rider »
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Offline Rotty_John

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #23 on: December 28, 2011, 11:32:14 AM »
As an update...

Changed thermostat... problem appears to be greatly improved... the hose no longer sucks flat and stays that way. Bike runs at 1/4 scale deflection  creeps up maybe 1/2 at idle but it seems there are times still in the 3000-4000 rpm range the hose deflates some definately different than before.

I also suspect I am also watching it way too much. Not going to mess with it for awhile. Just going to enjoy the commute!

John

Thanks for the hose pn#

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Offline Zorlac

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Re: Upper radiator hose collapsed
« Reply #24 on: December 28, 2011, 06:30:35 PM »
If I were the hose, that look alone would make me afraid to collapse.  :rotflmao:
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